Transcription: 0361 - Luke Thornton

Released: August 1, 2021

Darwin: Okay today, I have the great pleasure of speaking to someone... Actually it was brought to my attention from a PR person who tricked me. They got my attention by sending some photos of their studio, where I saw a tremendously cool set of gear. And, y'all know that I can get entranced by gear once in a while. But as I did a little more digging and I found I really like the music that was made by this group. And this PR person got me in touch with the technologist of the team. His name is Luke Thornton, the band name is Elder Island, and I am very glad to have you on the podcast. Hey Luke, how are you?

Luke Thornton: Hey, I'm good, Darwin. Thank you very much for having me.

Darwin: Thanks a lot for joining. This is really a cool opportunity. I appreciate it. So why don't we start off for people who might not be familiar with Elder Island, why don't we have you give us a brief elevator pitch of what the band does and what you do within the band?

Luke: So yeah, we're three piece sort of electronic pop act. Live, I predominantly do the drums and bass guitar, and then we have Dave, who's also another technology head. He does the guitar and synthesizers, And then Katy, our lead singer, sings and she also plays the cello. Our music live is predominantly based on loops. So we make the show as we go along and we rehearse it quite thoroughly. So we get our loops right. And we try to make it as free as possible. So we're not playing to a backing track, for three people trying to make quite a lot of layers of music. It can be quite challenging, but we try and to make it as organic and as free as possible and without laptops, because we just find that, I guess in history of when we've tried it, it's a bit unreliable. And so we prefer a more sturdier way of control with analog gear.

Darwin: That's really interesting. I would say that from even the looks of your studio, your creation process is clearly not in the box Pro Tools-focused production, scheme. You really take a different approach and one that relies on sort of the fuzziness of actual electrons.

Luke: Yeah, exactly. I mean when you throw in a cello into this electronic world as well, we've always been like, "Oh, Christ, how do we mold it correctly?"

Darwin: Well, it's really interesting though, to hear that your live work is loop-oriented. Are you saying that you literally do the creation of the layers live through stacked looping?

Luke: Yeah, exactly. Not everything entirely, like I use drum machines. So the sequencer is the control of that. But Katy has about three loopers herself, maybe four, now. Dave has four loopers. Like he has a bunch of synthesizers and sequences as well. And I have a couple of loopers, one for the voice and one for the bass guitar. And yeah, it is there as it is basically. We have the control of muting sequences for synthesizers and stuff. Generally it's like we try and do it as much on the fly as possible to just build it up. And our songs on the records, the way that they're written is with that premise, we go into the studio, we press record, we've got all of our equipment in front of us and we just work loop layers. And when we want to bring it down, we take loop layers layers out. And after we finished recording, when we listen back to it and we go, okay, sometimes that could be a wall of sound. There can be so much going on. So we listen back to it and we go, "Okay, that's not needed. That's needed...", and then we start to pick it apart and produce it if you will.

Darwin: Yeah. I would say that, there are aspects of your music that just hearing are really kind of hard to mesh together because in fact, your music is very layered, and some of it is your choice of instrumentation, the sound of drum and bass, but with also synthesis, a lot of processing. I would say that one of the things I hear is a lot of processing of all the layers, but also just like stacks and stacks of layers. And it's really hard to even imagine there being an opportunity to do that live. That seems a little intimidating.

Luke: I mean, that's one of our biggest challenges that we are finding now, cause we're doing rehearsals for live sets and stuff, and it always comes back to that. Like sometimes we've used like seven synthesizers, doing the same pattern on a track. And so when we come to play it live, we're like, well, we can't take a Moog Voyager and a Moog Minotaur, and a Prophet, we've got to figure out how we can create that thickness with little. And sometimes that's kind of trust and reliability on the venue and the sound system itself and being like, "Right, let's just do our stripped back versions". And just see how much we can beef it up with the layers that we can create.

Darwin: I'll admit that one of the things that I did as part of figuring out even how to describe the band was, I did the thing that I should probably never do, which is looked up your Wikipedia page, where it says you started off as like an experimental folk thing, which there's a mismatch between what I hear today and that kind of phrase, what was the genesis of the band?

Luke: The genesis... So Dave and I have known each other since we were really small, like three, four years old and at around 16, we got into playing music and that was more like rock and indie sort of music. He was very guitar-based, drums. But one thing at that age I got quite obsessed with, just the act of looping, not knowing what MIDI is, not knowing what synthesizers really are. Just thought they were keyboards. We got really into loopers and then me and Dave went down this rabbit hole of, oh, what if you got like a delay pedal and a reverb and phasers and... Fast forward four years, we go to university and we meet Katy and Katy was very shy in the sense of like, she would never sing in front of anyone.

She would just be in a bedroom like singing and we would overhear and be like, "Oh my God, what's that?" And then, she'd be playing the cello and be like, "Oh my God, there's a cello." The way the folk experimental thing came about is it was like this intrigue of like, let's get a microphone, let's put it in front of the cello, let's loop it, let's cut it up with these loops. And so we just started making music like that, just experimenting with whatever sounds that we had, which were essentially a bass guitar, a normal guitar and a cello. And instead of making folk music, we would just kind of mess with it and kind of destroy it a bit. That was the basic introduction of us as three people playing music together. And at that time we were just broke 19 year-olds.

We didn't have any money to string together cause we're students. So we never even thought about buying a synthesizer and learning keyboards or learning a drum machine or a sampler. It was only years later where we were going out to more clubs in the city and we were heavily into DJing and that sort of electronic music production. We always really thrived off it and enjoyed it, but never really understood how it was made. Ableton was getting more popular. I think it was around Ableton 7 sort of time. And we were like, "Oh, okay. You can just draw in your drum pattern" and we're learning more and more that, there are these tools and these things that you can do that will progress something else. And we can just put down the guitar and play a different instrument. And it was the first time that we actually thought, oh, like let's not focus on the guitar and the bass anymore. Let's like focusing on tinkering with these mad sounds that you can create. That just seems so foreign to us. I think that was the appeal as well.

Darwin: The idea that it has seemed so alien, but you still get a chance to play with it. It's hard for me too though, to think of starting off with loopers and ending up with something that is like really beat-driven and really synchronized the way that you do. I mean, so often when people, especially if they come from a background with guitars and stuff, the loopers tend to focus on people doing solo work. Like - I'm going to do a guitar line now I'm going to do the baseline. I'm going to do a backup vocals and I'm going to sing over the top of it. It's oriented more towards a single person, sort of like developing a set of layers. How is it that you relatively early on, got this idea of like having collaboration with looping, because that's sort of like the antithesis of almost people use loopers.

Luke: Yeah, I mean, at the time I was quite naive thinking about it. Like we didn't really - there wasn't many loopers that had MIDI either. So we were using loopers that didn't sync with anything. And it was only after we were getting fed up that we couldn't just leave the loop to let it play that we were like, we need to find something that we can just sync and it'll just be in time. At the time we would be playing with a drummer or I'd have a drum kit and somebody else would be looping and I'd try and play the drums. But I was going all out at a time. And I guess that's where the introduction of - we'd always talked about like MPCs. That's the introduction of when we started going fully electronic, I bought an MPC 1000 and then Dave bought a Korg MS-2000 synthesizer and a Pianet and a Looper that could be synced. From there, it was like, right now we can do the keys side of things and loop it with drums. But we also don't have to just have a simple drum beat. We can sample stuff or we can layer stuff. We can mix and match how we do it.

Darwin: That's really interesting that the MPC was kind of like your entree into sequencing. Again, something that is really popular but often drives people towards more - an awful lot of the MPC styling tends to be more hip hop based rather than house-based. Although it was really popular in the house world, especially at that timeframe of the MPC-1000 you saw a lot of house producers using using that as well.

Luke: Yeah, for sure. I mean, totally under-appreciated it at the time, knew it could do so much, but at the time it was like, this is just too baffling. I don't know what MIDI sequencing is here, I'm just going to use it to put in the sounds and loop it. And it was only like years later where you buy more gear and you're like, oh, I can actually plug this, a synthesizer it into it. And then I've got a MIDI loop and you know, it goes deeper and deeper, like so much gear.

Darwin: Did you ever pursue any kind of educational path to try and figure some of this stuff out? Or was it all made up off the cuff?

Luke: We kind of fell into being musicians. My university degree was in documentary photography. Dave's was in graphic design, Katy's was in fine art. So we were just art students, just doing this in our spare time. And it was only until like 2013-14, where we bought the MPC in 2012-13 and the synths and stuff. And it was only around then when somebody heard some of our tracks, they were like, oh, I'll put that out on a record. And we were like, yeah. Okay, cool. Do a 50/50 deal for a year. You know, it's no skin off our back. It's just, let's just do it. And then it just exploded, we had like half a million plays of these songs in like a month. And we were just like, oh wow!

People are really enjoying and it got played on radio and yeah, we were like, okay, let's figure out how the players live now. Then I guess it's like we're still using a bit of drums and cymbals and you know, me and David swapped between guitars and bass and stuff, but, yeah, we just kind of fell into it and by falling into it we just got more and more obsessed with making it sound better. Like why is it phasing? What is phase? And it's just a case of our own. We're all very DIY. And so it just reading about it and getting absorbed into it is what we do when we're gripped on something really.

Darwin: That's really great though, because what that also means is you're not relying on somebody like spec sheet or something to determine whether it's going to work for you or not. You're like plugging it into a mixer and finding out if it sounds right for the way that you do music. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, but also it probably leads you to some pretty bizarre revelations. I mean, are there things that surprise you because they inexplicably became part of your sound?

Luke: Yeah. There's many things really. It's so funny because you start off with like, I see photographs now and I've literally just got an MPC and a looper and a mixer with all my channels running into the mixer and then out. And that's how I used to run everything and I'm looking at it now and I'm just like how? I get it, because I listened to those early tracks and it's like, there wasn't much going on. There's a lot of space compared to our newest album where it's like, there's a lot of layers. There's a lot more layers because we've learned how to balance the layers for one. But also we've learned how to harmonize certain things. We've learned that stupid things like a bass channel frequency should be going through similar bass channel frequencies as opposed to something that's high hats.

Do you know what I mean? We were just so naive and just learning wha to do. Dave is also a lot more in-depth with it as well. Like he's the solder man. You know, he's making his own boards. He's designing his own rig and how to wire it he's kind of the guru of the group. So when we're a bit lost, we just go "aaaa Dave?." I take a while because I know Dave would give me an answer and then he will carry on with the possibilities of what you can go with. And it's like, no, no, no, I don't need that answer. I needed the original question. So it's like, I'll hold off for as long as possible until I'm like, Dave, it's been two weeks. It's doing my head in, I can't figure it out. Do you know how to do it? And he'll be able to figure out in a few days or a day,

Darwin: But in a way that kind of aligns with your role in the group, you really are involved in the production end of it. And one of the roles of our producers started to say, okay, give me the whole palette of colors, now I think that we need to limit it to these colors. which it sounds like it's from a collaboration standpoint, you found a really comfortable way of working with each other, working with the technologies that you interact with, but also working just musically with this stuff as well.

Luke: Yeah, for sure. Out of the group, I find myself like I was saying earlier with our processes that we go in, we record whatever's our fingers tips. And we listen back to it. I find myself when we come to producing it, we rerecord it. But I find myself always loving that first recording, because there's a lot of freedom within something that makes it organic. And when you are always putting it to a grid and producing it and making sure that it's super tight, which you need to do with electronic music in a sense like house music, especially is always very quantized, right. We're always kind of fighting that edge of like we need it to still have that freedom that organicness, that was created in the first place. And the only way you can recreate that is by having it be as free as it was originally. I always find we tinker with it and tinker with it and keep going. And I always find myself going, no, let's just go back to the original or just stop rather than keep on going. It's like, why are we going on for another week doing this when it sounds good already?

Darwin: Well, but again, that is sort of like one of the most difficult parts of production is knowing when to say "when". When you hear about horror stories in production it's always like, well, I ended up with 120 tracks of guitar, how do I even cope with that? Right? It's, sort of like now the ability to be obsessive compulsive is one of the horror stories of doing production.

Luke: We're quite good as a three because we've known each other for so long, our friendship is always first over the band. And so when we're in the studio, we can say anything freely, cause it's a safe space. It doesn't mean that you appreciate what they've said. I mean, like there's been points where you've been really knocked up by the opinion that's been thrown at you, but it's like, "No it's fine, that's cool." We can work on a compromise or we can work on the harmony to make sure at the end of the day that the product or the final result is what we're all happy with. And yeah, I feel like all three of us would say is that we wouldn't put something out. If all three of us weren't happy. It still wouldn't be done.

Darwin: Now, unlike a lot of the artists that I speak with, your music is very much focused on vocals as a way of portraying meaning, right? Which means that it's on one hand, it's maybe a little less abstract than instrumental music, but on the other hand, it means that - from a development standpoint - there's a lot of things that require attention. And I guess this is where I imagine I listened to the music and I imagine the creation of the music and especially hearing about the process that you use to bring it together. I think that there has to be a significant amount of effort that's used to basically say, on one hand, we have the ability to develop a wall of sound. A friend of mine, one time said that the downside with most modern musical instruments now is that you could create "all" the sound, right?

Each person can create it all. And there's a downside to that because you can end up with this wall of sound, but you have a specific responsibility though, of being able to carve out space for a vocal to sit, to be able to carve out space for... The cello especially is a very vocal like instrument. So that too has this kind of a space that it needs to own. You mentioned before that a lot of your work is involved in balancing either some sort of harmonizing of the system as you're putting tracks together. What is your strategy for creating stuff that does allow for vocals to have their upfront and center space?

Luke: Katy does a very good job of writing this unique melody anyway. She's got a very good talent of, when we do it in the studio, quite often it won't be like just saying words and just figuring out. She'll think of her melody and she'll sit on just that for quite a while. And she'll go back and forth of like, "What is the right words to fit in to what I've written here?" And so we just give her the freedom to do it, essentially. If sometimes she'll come in and she'd be like, "Oh, I've written this new part for this song. Do you think it works?" And sometimes it doesn't work as much. And we have to say, we think it doesn't need any vocals or we think the space is already there from what you've originally created.

She's very open, we're all very open because at the end of the day is a collaboration. So it is this a to-ing and fro-ing of what works here for the song rather than just being like, "No, this is going to be a powerhouse of a song. I can hear it all already." It's like, no, we just need to feel it out. Or sometimes we'd be like, we've got the instrumentation of the song, and it was like, "Katy, we need something here. What can you get?" And, sometimes it happens quick. Sometimes it happens slow, and it's just like, well, just come to us when you think you've got something.

Darwin: Well, this is really interesting though because it really does kind of point to the sort of like collaborative process that you have for production. And it's sort of like the antithesis of what I think of as like the typical music industry production thing. Where you have a producer who comes in and very efficiently tries to assemble the tracks necessarily to do a release and then move on to the next project. I mean it sounds like you really organically grow these pieces over time, and together, which is really great. But your music has an incredibly modern production sound and quality. Do you work with external mixing engineers or other producers or something that helped you sort of like tailor the resultant sound or is this all stuff that you're making up on the fly?

Luke: A bit of both, different projects have had different things. So the first records that we ever did, my first EP, we did everything because we were just: no money, no sales. It was like, we don't know how this is, just put out it's fine. The second one, we produced it all and we'd mixed it. And our manager said, "No." We got a new manager at the time. And he was just like, "Wait, this needs to have a step up, have a punch." So he brought in, or the label who signs that EP, it was Metropolis Studios in London. They were like, oh, well, we'll use one of the mics and engineers to do it. So they got a guy there called Liam Nolan. The first mix we heard from him, we were like, wow, this just has elevated what we made.

And then there was another guy that did it, and he did a few songs, but there was a lot more back and forth. And one of the tracks, we were just like, no, we're going to mix ourselves and get it out. And then the first album that we did, we were kind of stuck. We kind of had these songs for like three years, some cases four years, the Omnitone collection. So we had a whole bunch of songs and some were pretty much done, but a lot of them were just like, we need to finish this. Otherwise we're never going to get an album out. And so we went to a guy that we had met in the past, who runs a studio in Bristol called Ali Chant. And that was really great. Cause it was the first time that we had worked with an external producer in the room.

Luke: Somebody that was actually a professional with dream equipment, that we couldn't or can't afford still. And we learned a lot in the space of like six weeks because the stuff where there's three of us going back and forth, not signing something off when you've got somebody else that you're paying to be like "time is money". He's like, "Well, let's sign this off." It's like, "Okay, great. Yeah, that sounds good. That sounds good. That doesn't, let's change that." So we, we worked quite closely with Ali Chant, but he helped us like really push those songs and finish them for the album. And then this album, we knew we wanted to step up from the Omnitone, but we also knew that we wanted it to be a bit sonically different. We had written it all in the basement in the studio, but when we were talking about the project, we were like, "Right, let's actually get a mix engineer for the whole album."

Luke: And we love Liam Nolan stuff. So we were like, let's go back with Liam. Let's see if he's up for mixing it. And so before having the finished project, we got Liam on board and he was totally up for it, so that was really nice reworking with someone that we had worked with three years previous. And then we also had the same thing where we had these songs, but we just couldn't finish them for the life of us. We had one song where we had just, we had played every instrument in the house and we still were just racking our brains been like, "How the hell are we going to do this?" And so we went back with Ali again to his studio and we were like, "Ali, help us, man. Like we've tried, we've really tried on this one."

And then he basically would just take on board what else our vision is and how big we want it. And he would, with the Omnitone, Ali did all the mixing. And because we had got Liam on board for this album, we were like, it was a bit hard to say it to Ali as well, but because he's a friend and he understands, he was just like, "I get it. You've got somebody on board. You want a different step up from the sound." So Ali helped us produce and finalize the stuff that we couldn't. And then we sent it off to Liam to get mixed again.

Darwin: That's great. So one of the things that can happen when you work with external producers or mixers or whatever is you learn in the process, too, right? Just from watching them operate, what did you come away from those people? I mean, sounds like both Liam and Ali were really instrumental in helping you complete projects, but also get the sound that you want. Were there things from working with them that you came out of the process knowing better and put you in a better position for making your own tracks?

Luke: Yeah, for sure. I mean, with Liam, when we've spoken to him, he's so chilled that we send him the track and we'll be like, okay, so what did you think of our mix? Like, have you had to do much work to get it to where you have? And he would just be like, "Ah, I just tamed that on the compressor and I just did this. I didn't have to do much really..." but it sounds wildly different. With Ali, just watching him in the studio is really fun and interesting because he's got a lot more equipment than us for starters. But like for years, just racking brains about like, what's the right microphone to use, or what's the right four or five microphones to use on a drum kit or vocals, like what preamps is he putting it through?

And then what compression is he doing it? Like what sort of gear and why is he using it? And like watching somebody do that just seems so very fluid going over to a Neve 1073. For Ali, it must be a bit annoying because we could spend half an hour just quizzing him and he'll be like, "Oh, can I get back to work?" We're like, "Okay." But yeah, it seemed valuable just even watching him on Pro Tools. We don't use Pro Tools. We use Ableton, but watching him just even cut up tracks and spice them back together, just learning things like that, little tricks that you could do in Ableton to stop degradation of sound or like little clip cut out points that hadn't even thought about before, or even cross fading clips together. So you don't get all of these horrible noises and cutting it out. Yeah. A lot of utility based things really, which is important in recording.

Darwin: That makes a lot of sense. And I can imagine that when you hear things lock in, it's really important for you to send them to say, okay, that was a 1073. And to mark that down. Again, I was sucked in to having this interview be because of the pictures of the studio. You have no lack of equipment. There is no shortage there that you're working off of. And I mean, I saw everything from like the old Boss half-racks to a real centerpiece, which is the Moog Voyager. It seems like that has a real prime position, but also you work at a kind of a large format console. It's clear that going all the way back to your MPC days, having a mixer as part of your development process is really a key part of how you do your work right?

Luke: Oh for sure, yeah. Like, even like you said about Ali and learning, like he uses a Trident. I can't remember what it is, but it's a very big console and just how he was routeing it. We were using an Allen & Heath ZR-16. We were using that for years and that's fine. Cause it's a nice beginner's home studio desk, you've got six channels and it goes straight to your computer. But the biggest thing that we found that happened is that you just get digital noise or you get clipped. So you get pops that shouldn't be there because I guess the FireWire conversion over to the computer. And we just basically realized that, hey, we need more channels. You can never have too many channels. And just the routing of it, we've got like a different Allen & Heath desk now, but the way that we route it is like 32 channels coming out of the computer, but 32 channels that are our tape, but it's our monitor channels.

But you know, just having the effects on the auxes is that you're able to control and having them routed all around the studio. Like when we did the album, we did an overhaul, like a big overhaul of buying new equipment because we had learned quite a bit from Ali. Of like, we need better pre-amps for Katy's vocals. We need better pre-amps for the drums we need, that a pre-amp for the Rhodes. I got into modular at the same time. So it's like, right. How can we route insert, so Katy can be singing and then I can take her feed and mess with it on the modular? So she's singing away and not knowing that I'm looping her and manipulating her voice, just things like that really where we could not be afraid of not staying at our stations.

We didn't want to just be like, oh, I do the bass and drums. It was like, no, I want to play the piano. So play the piano. It was kind of like this freedom of... I don't want to do the bass. Katy got a bass synthesizer. So she's doing the base, Dave's doing the drums. It was very much like let's just open it up more than we ever can. It's kind of worked it would be good to do more. It's always the problem. You want to do more, you want to add more. And it's only when you get to listen to it's like, right. Take it away, take it away.

Darwin: All that equipment, especially the effects. This is the place where I saw the greatest variety was in the effects. You guys have a lot of like guitar pedals kind of laying in every corner. You've got a lot of rack stuff. You've got delays, you've got all kinds of stuff. What would you say from an effect standpoint, really are your primary pieces for creating your sound. I would say you very much have a sound kind of like this dark, thick, layered sound, and it's kind of lasted throughout, even in what you call kind of like a more primitive time - it's always had that kind of voicing. What is it that, to you really represents the tools that make that sound?

Luke: Yeah. That's interesting thing to pick up on actually, which makes total sense really when we first started. I remember me and Dave just being obsessed with plate reverbs. Like the first EP is just a plate reverb or all of the time, it can sound so moody because it's just like, all right, how do we make that sound like bigger and crazier? It's just like put it through a bigger plate or just put it through eight plates. So we really loved plates back then. Over time, I mean working with Ali as well, we've got to fall in love quite heavily with spring reverbs. They were just so percussive and beautiful, especially on drums and like little, short sort of sounds having that trail of the springs.

Yeah. It's really nice. And I don't know, there's something very like dub and reggae about it. There's like... I mean, I've become more and more obsessed with delays of different varieties like Styrmon have been doing some incredible effects for years now. And we've been pretty hooked on them for about four or five years. The phaser on a guitar. Dave's always obsessed with that. We got quite obsessed again with the harmonizer for Katy's vocals, the Eventide Harmonizer. I can't remember the numbers now, but it's like the famous one that David Bowie and Tony Visconti use to like "fuck with the fabric of time" they say. But, we got a couple of H9s, so we were messing around with that and Sound Toys plugins because it creates an amazing width.

Especially with Katy's vocals live. She messes around quite a lot with her at vocal effects creates a deeper octave, as her backing. Which sounds oddly quite like me. So when I'm singing, there's kind of two of me and then one of me when we play live, that's wild. Just like I said I've got into Eurorack in the past year and the way that I got into Eurorack compared to Dave - Dave went in the normal way of going, right. I'm a synthisist first, right? And the way when I was starting to do my research on it and built up my modular rack on Modular Grid, Dave was just like, you've got no synths here. These are all effects. And I was like, yeah, I just want an effects rack. And David's just like, but what's the point?

And I was just like, you'll see, man... And you get a Clouds. The Clouds, it's more than like a reverb, it's mind-bending, like what it can do. The same with like the Make Noise Mimiophone, like that thing is - I want that as a desktop effects unit because it just does some mad looping stuff. I mean, the beauty of it is that you can modulate the hell out it with CV. I mean, I've just been blown away with just how much opportunity there is really. And now I've started to get into the synthesis side of it, but it's just too easy to add a delay and double what source you're putting into it.

Darwin: Unfortunately our time is up, but, before we bug out, for people who want to learn more about your work, about the groups work, what's the best way for them to do more than just listen. How could they find out more about the process you go through? And the work you put into this?

Luke: I guess our website is always a really good place. I mean, we're independent artists. So our website,, has our shop where you can buy the record. We've also made a couple of videos explaining how we've written the most recent album, Swimming Static. That's on the website as well. It's on YouTube, but the website's a good hub for everything, that all of the social media, but also YouTube and, where you can get tickets for the shows and merch and stuff. So yeah, I reckon.

Darwin: All right. Fantastic. Well, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this chat. It was really great talking to you.

Luke: Thank you, Darwin. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on.

Copyright 2021 by Darwin Grosse. All right reserved.